And I decided a long time ago that to challenge someone's faith - especially if that is a crucial thing in their life - is a big responsibilty.
Joe Grundy
JoinedPosts by Joe Grundy
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16
FS Visit Today
by Joe Grundy injust received a fs visit - first for several months.
an attractive 'yummy mummy' with (what seemed to me) a strained smile and a very young girl (presumably her daughter) about 9 or 10.. the weather was attrocious, i was distracted, and i failed completely to make any comment or to challenge.
looking at the young girl, particularly, i felt nothing but sympathy.. i accepted a leaflet 'can the dead really live again?
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16
FS Visit Today
by Joe Grundy injust received a fs visit - first for several months.
an attractive 'yummy mummy' with (what seemed to me) a strained smile and a very young girl (presumably her daughter) about 9 or 10.. the weather was attrocious, i was distracted, and i failed completely to make any comment or to challenge.
looking at the young girl, particularly, i felt nothing but sympathy.. i accepted a leaflet 'can the dead really live again?
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Joe Grundy
I did not even think to ask YM whether she had the latest NNWT or just the 'old' NWT. Nor did I think to ask her about the 'Mass Resurrection' which, according to the NT followed the crucifixion (you remember, when all the graves in Jerusalem opened and resurrected people were wandering around greeting friends. Or about resurrected wives/husbands of widowed spouses who had remarried, and all that sort of stuff.
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16
FS Visit Today
by Joe Grundy injust received a fs visit - first for several months.
an attractive 'yummy mummy' with (what seemed to me) a strained smile and a very young girl (presumably her daughter) about 9 or 10.. the weather was attrocious, i was distracted, and i failed completely to make any comment or to challenge.
looking at the young girl, particularly, i felt nothing but sympathy.. i accepted a leaflet 'can the dead really live again?
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Joe Grundy
(Lost a previous post so may post this in chunks).
The leaflet is poorly and cheaply printed trash. Personally, I would be embarrassed to hand it out, whoever I was representing.
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16
FS Visit Today
by Joe Grundy injust received a fs visit - first for several months.
an attractive 'yummy mummy' with (what seemed to me) a strained smile and a very young girl (presumably her daughter) about 9 or 10.. the weather was attrocious, i was distracted, and i failed completely to make any comment or to challenge.
looking at the young girl, particularly, i felt nothing but sympathy.. i accepted a leaflet 'can the dead really live again?
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Joe Grundy
Just received a FS visit - first for several months. An attractive 'yummy mummy' with (what seemed to me) a strained smile and a very young girl (presumably her daughter) about 9 or 10.
The weather was attrocious, I was distracted, and I failed completely to make any comment or to challenge. Looking at the young girl, particularly, I felt nothing but sympathy.
I accepted a leaflet 'Can The Dead Really Live Again?' with a smile and said 'thanks'. I thought about offering the child a pack of left-over 'Halloween' sweets, decided against it. My baser thoughts were that the mum was an attractive woman who deserved to be taken out for dinner and shown a life outside the WTBTS enforced circle. (Mea culpa).
They moved on. I will, no doubt, think about them for a while (not the mum especially, more the child). What a way to live the only life we have!
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10
Individual Governing Body Members and Lawsuits
by jw07 ini don't know if this has any legal implications:.
since the identities of the individual members of the governing body have been publicly confirmed (not that we didn't know that before) can that open the way for direct lawsuits to be leveled against members?.
for instance are there any laws in the usa that would open the way for geoffrey jackson to be targetted by the lawsuits from child abuse or no blood transfusion deaths?.
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Joe Grundy
IMHO, it is always a good idea to include in a lawsuit individuals by name as well as the corporate identities they hide behind.
Here in the UK, at least, individuals are liable in a wide range of legislation, and it certainly concentrates minds when you tell people that they, personally, will be named in a lawsuit (and for example, local government is legally barred from indemnifying against or paying for legal costs of a local government officer).
Whilst organisations may have 'vicarious liability' for the actions of their officers/employees, etc., (watch them run backwards as fast as they can) courts, IME, like to cut through organisational claptrap.
Stand the individual up in court and watch then crap themselves/spread the blame would be my suggestion.
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Assisted Reproduction = Adultery
by Joe Grundy inhttp://cyprus-mail.com/2013/10/04/third-party-assisted-reproduction-is-adultery-says-church/.
when discussing 'church' doctrines, many people cite 'protestant' -v- 'catholic' etc., forgetting the 'orthodox' churches which split from rcc about 1,000 years ago in the 'great schism'.
the orthodox churches are as wacky and controlling in their way as any other (cf.
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Joe Grundy
http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/10/04/third-party-assisted-reproduction-is-adultery-says-church/
When discussing 'church' doctrines, many people cite 'Protestant' -v- 'Catholic' etc., forgetting the 'Orthodox' churches which split from RCC about 1,000 years ago in the 'Great schism'. The orthodox churches are as wacky and controlling in their way as any other (cf. the current power of the Russian Orthodox as an ally and supporter of Putin).
As an ex-resident of Cyprus I follow the goings-on there with a bemused and cynical view. The Cypriot Orthodox church is autonomous because the grave of Lazarus was discovered there (after his second death) and is nowadays rightly regarded by most rational thinkers as as good an example of a wholly corrupt organisation as one could wish to meet. The current archbishop, Chrysystomos II, was elected through a shenanigans as corrupt as any in the 'worldly' world. A fine example for christianity, and to my cynical mind a parallel for what the GB is doing to JWs (except that the GB can only dream of the power that the church exerts in CY, where its influence over political elections is clear).
The article referenced above (sorry I don't know how to make it 'clickable') is a good example of the ludicrous statements that the church comes out with. I suspect that their thinking is not a million miles away from that of the GB, and just goes to illustrate the danger of religious groups.
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6
Shunning - Not Just JWs
by Joe Grundy inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69xmjp8.
this is a documentary from louis theroux on his return visit to westboro baptist chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet.
but not that different, imho, as jdubs.. i never was a dub, but i hope as a human that i can share their pain.. being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,.
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Joe Grundy
Captian Obvious: Sorry for your pain.
One reason I posted this video is to demonstrate, perhaps, how crazy some religions can be. Many people might watch this and agree that they, and their practices, are crazy. They are a very small nutjob group. It doesn't take much imagination to scale this up to JWs and show just how crazy they are too.
With respect to exiting/fading/faded/successfully out IWs.
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6
Shunning - Not Just JWs
by Joe Grundy inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69xmjp8.
this is a documentary from louis theroux on his return visit to westboro baptist chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet.
but not that different, imho, as jdubs.. i never was a dub, but i hope as a human that i can share their pain.. being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,.
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Joe Grundy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69XmJp8
This is a documentary from Louis Theroux on his return visit to Westboro Baptist Chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet. But not that different, IMHO, as jdubs.
I never was a dub, but I hope as a human that I can share their pain.
Being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,
The comments re shunning will, I';m sure, strike home with many JWs - the crazy beliefs may strke home even more.
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28
A View From Outside
by Joe Grundy ini never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.
i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.
the effects, imho, are not positive.
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Joe Grundy
My duty to respond, I think.
First - re 'cock'. Mouthy (Grace) has explained this. It is an expression I use myself, as in 'All right, cock?'. There are no doubt some hidden semantics somewhere (maybe the old cockney 'cock sparrer') but it's along the lines that I can call Grace 'duck'. No problems, no issues.
Second - my comments re 'dowdy' JW women were ill-chosen and I had no wish to cause offence. I am sure that there are JW 'hot chicks' (I haven't seen any) but what I wanted to convey was that the JWs I see doing FS are uniformly 'beige'. By that I mean that they share a look. Uninterested in what they are doing (elsewhere called the 'pioneer shuffle') and really not interested in talking about what they really believe - because IME they don't know what they really believe.
Third - no, I am not an 'evangelical' atheist, and I think very carefully before I say anything. I would hate to do anything which might contribute to the loss of faith of someone whose life, sanity, etc., depends on it. But if someone 'evangelises' to me, I respond.
I was a cop for 30 years, most as a detective, and for a significant part of that running a Fraud Squad. Con men (and women) were my stock in trade. The way to deal with them was (and remains, IME) to ask simple questions - who, why, when, how, etc. - and NOT be deflected by spurious crap. This approach works pretty well and can be applied (for example) when looking at Russell, Rutherford and others (as far as the JW history is concerned). Cut away the crap, look at the historical context, and challenge, challenge.
Apropos of nothing, I once arrested a local politician who had 'misclaimed' - stolen, in common parlance - £60k in fraudulent expenses. His explanations and justifications were a wonder to behold. But (though he hated them) the basic questions were simple. His answers were pure unadulterated crap. He went to prison. I think of him sometimes when I read of the GB floundering on child protection issues, etc. They are not much different.
I'm sorry if my OP was harsh. I have much sympathy for JWs, and I can't really know just how bad it is to live under their restrictions, the fear of shunning, etc. But I will, if I get the chance, oppose their 'ministry' just as I will that of any religion.
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28
A View From Outside
by Joe Grundy ini never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.
i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.
the effects, imho, are not positive.
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Joe Grundy
"I do wonder, though, if it's effective to speak directly to JWs,"
IME, the adage is true - it's a waste of time to discuss religion with the religious.
Over the years, I think I have come to the Christopher Hitchens point of view - i.e. these people ARE my enemies, it is not sufficient to sit on the sidelines respectfully. Even though I and mine are not personally affected, in a way, we ARE affected adversely by the pervasive influence that religion brings to bear on the world in so many different ways.